Is anyone really undecide one day before the election

[augie]

I understand this issue is tough, but I also think accusing Obama of being pro-infanticide is beyond the pale, and making comments like "it's ok in your book to allow them to die on a counter" is useless hyperbole.

Most of the arguments I've heard against Obama involve strange conspiracies, wild accusations, out and out falsehoods and the twisting of the odd phrase to try to create a new reality. I really have NOT seen the equivalent on the other side (except the Palin pregnancy thing, which was outrageous). Whatever happens tomorrow, I am just tired of it.

With your views on abortion, you obviously would never vote for Obama. I just wish people would focus on the candidate's real positions, instead of implications about secret associations, hidden agendas, citizenship cover-ups, etc.

Ok, the alternative to providing very basic comfort care to the rare infant that survives having its heart stopped is what? Allowing this baby to die on its own of neglect and/or purposely hastening its death. I call that infanticide.

I did not make a comment about dying on the counter, although that is what happened at Christ Hospital, Oak Lawn, IL (Cicero Ave and 95th Street, ph 708-684-8000) that got this entire bill started.

I also did not say anything about citizenship cover-up and absolutely everything else is based on facts.

Yes, tomorrow can not come soon enough.

[mbw]

Ok, the alternative to providing very basic comfort care to the rare infant that survives having its heart stopped is what? Allowing this baby to die on its own of neglect and/or purposely hastening its death. I call that infanticide.

I did not make a comment about dying on the counter, although that is what happened at Christ Hospital, Oak Lawn, IL (Cicero Ave and 95th Street, ph 708-684-8000) that got this entire bill started.


Yes, tomorrow can not come soon enough.

thanks Augie for posting this.

[augie]

thanks Augie for posting this.

Thank you too, mbw, for standing with me in defense of the most innocent and vulnerable among us - those who do not have a choice - unborn children.

[jknyc]

I'm curious... how would a bill like that affect couples who have severely premature babies? Would they be able to make decisions about their medical treatment? Or would the state take that decision away from them?

I can only answer for New York State, but if a baby is born at 24 or 26 weeks (I can't remember which), medical staff is required to do everything possible.

[LauraG1]

I was surprised to find out that we have fewer rights than I even imagined at this point. A friend of mine was recently faced with delivering a child with severe deformities not compatible with life, and asked if the child would just be allowed to die. The answer: No. Advanced medical intervention was required (ie life support and intubation). So no, the parents do not have control over their own children's life even now.
Laura

[Hollie_B]

I'm curious... how would a bill like that affect couples who have severely premature babies? Would they be able to make decisions about their medical treatment? Or would the state take that decision away from them?

In 2006 in the state of Alabama, it was our drs. choice until 24 weeks. At 24w0d patients are able to consult with Neonatologists and than declare a resuscitation decision until 25w, then it's grey until 26 weeks when resuscitation is typically performed. But, if I had delivered prior to 24 weeks it was not our decision but the medical staffs decision to save the babies.

[freddy]

I'm curious... how would a bill like that affect couples who have severely premature babies? Would they be able to make decisions about their medical treatment? Or would the state take that decision away from them?

Its really a very interesting question. In thinking about the born alive issue, I was thinking that the problem of infants born alive too early to survive, or with medical problems making survival extremely unlikely, likely occurs FAR more often in the 'normal' course of a pgcy than in an attempted abortion.

Any time a baby dies its heartbreaking. Whether it be of natural causes, or from intentional medical intervention. Whether it be inside the womb or outside the womb. Whether it be intubated or not intubated.

[freddy]

Ok, the alternative to providing very basic comfort care to the rare infant that survives having its heart stopped is what? Allowing this baby to die on its own of neglect and/or purposely hastening its death. I call that infanticide.

A side issue is that these situations occur naturally far more often than unnaturally. What DO you do, when a natural born, extremely preterm baby is born? This issues are faced daily in our country and I think the laws vary by state (as was briefly discusses somewhere else in this thread).

Its a tragedy in any case.

As a complete rabbit trail, regarding Christian schools- When I was teaching in a Christian school (which, in itself you may find disturbing- considering the discussions we've had here, I guess not all Christian school teachers are like minded) back to my point- one of the text books had a picture of a kid in a wheelchair and was captioned 'Cerebral Palsy is God's will for some people'. I about had a cow right then and there. Thankfully students never read their text books! By that same reasoning, being a preterm child who cannot survive is God's will for some people as well. Well, I disagree, but that goes down a theological trail I'm not going to go down. My point being- you can't let your guard down simply because you've chosen a Christian school.

[nmcd]

I just have to think that you have to trust people in these situations find their own way.

My SIL has severe cerebral palsy. My DH's family are strongly Catholic it's very odd because there seems to be this attitude that she her condition is almost a blessing bestowed on her parents because they are devout? I don't entirely understand the attitude, but the bottom line is that the extended family is incredibly kind and humane in their treatment of her. That's got to be a good thing.

[augie]

As a complete rabbit trail, regarding Christian schools- When I was teaching in a Christian school (which, in itself you may find disturbing- considering the discussions we've had here, I guess not all Christian school teachers are like minded)

. . .

Unbelievable.

[Kim of VA]

[QUOTE=freddy;217551]... one of the text books had a picture of a kid in a wheelchair and was captioned 'Cerebral Palsy is God's will for some people'. QUOTE]

I have a severely disabled neice. My SIL once told me that her MIL (an evangelicle christian) told her that her daughter had been struck by the devil. My SIL never forgave her MIL that comment, I don't think. It is very similar to the "God's will" comment. I guess I also don't want to go down the theological path on this, but as a christian myself, I have come to realize there are huge differences among christian beliefs. Huge.

I think I once mentioned here my priest advising me to confess my sin of abortion after having an ectopic pg. Now that is unbelievable.

[freddy]

Unbelievable.

I have no idea what this means.

[augie]

I have no idea what this means.

I'm not going to elaborate because I will surely say something I regret.

[dulaney]

Back to the topic of undecideds

I wonder if this happens:

Today, before I went to vote, I had an appointment to get my hair done. We were talking about the phone calls that we've received and my hair dresser told me that she has received several asking her who she was planning on voting for. She told me that she refuses to answer that question to anyone that calls her. She believes that it is her business and no one elses, and something she doesn't wish to discuss with anyone she doesn't know. So, I wonder if she gets listed as "undecided" since she won't answer the question. When in reality, she isn't undecided at all. Hmmm!

Kristin

[LauraG1]

That's my thought (don't know if it's factual or not) that it might be more of an issue with non-abortion situations, like my friends found themselves in. And then they were faced with a terrible decision b/c they would be forced into life-saving measures for their child (which for them they felt meant adding pain/suffering to a child that would not live very long) and they were so heart-broken. I hate that they did not have the choice to deliver their child and have the choice to let him die peacefully by their side.
Their are grey areas to every decision, and this is one to me that I've had to learn personally recently. It sounds great to have laws requiring all babies be resusitated at birth, but in reality, it's just never that easy. This is why laws that seem to make it black and white just aren't, IMHO, that way at all.
Laura