Marine officer: Gays, straights shouldn't share housing

[jvirginia]

OM freaking lord ... these are MARINES for God's sake. The conditions that they deal with out in the field are brutal - beyond brutal; aside from the danger, the lack of privacy, the heat, the cold, the misery ... and yet they are too wussy to share a room with a gay guy? Seriously?

I've shared rooms with lesbians, I've shared gym changing rooms with lesbians, I've seen naked lesbians in such changing rooms and they've seen me - and I've somehow survived with my sexuality intact. In college there were plenty of roommate situations that were gay/straight - no one was threatened by this.

As long as unwanted sexual advances remain verboten it should help, not hurt, to have this be an open issue because all of these tough straight marines would realize that the tough gay marines are not panting after them and somehow emasculating/threatening.

BTW my DH had an ex-army officer as a roommie in business school and I went to-to-toe with him on this issue, 15+ years ago, during the DNDT controversy - and he ended up agreeing with me that if his command had been able to drive tanks through the desert during Desert Storm and kill people they should be able to handle the trauma of an open homosexual among their ranks.

[MelanieOH]

I've always agreed with Barry Goldwater on this one issue.

"It doesn't matter if you're straight, just if you can shoot straight." (or something close to that.)

Hadn't heard this "separate but equal" argument. Is this the opinion of one Marine, or a new position of the corps?

Melanie

[freddy]

OM freaking lord ... these are MARINES for God's sake. The conditions that they deal with out in the field are brutal - beyond brutal; aside from the danger, the lack of privacy, the heat, the cold, the misery ... and yet they are too wussy to share a room with a gay guy? Seriously?

I've shared rooms with lesbians, I've shared gym changing rooms with lesbians, I've seen naked lesbians in such changing rooms and they've seen me - and I've somehow survived with my sexuality intact. In college there were plenty of roommate situations that were gay/straight - no one was threatened by this.

As long as unwanted sexual advances remain verboten it should help, not hurt, to have this be an open issue because all of these tough straight marines would realize that the tough gay marines are not panting after them and somehow emasculating/threatening.

BTW my DH had an ex-army officer as a roommie in business school and I went to-to-toe with him on this issue, 15+ years ago, during the DNDT controversy - and he ended up agreeing with me that if his command had been able to drive tanks through the desert during Desert Storm and kill people they should be able to handle the trauma of an open homosexual among their ranks.

I don't know the full context of what you're referring to, but another take on it could be that its for the protection of the gay marines, not to protect the masculinity of the straight ones.

[jvirginia]

Link to full article:

http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/03/26/mar...ing/index.html

No, it isn't some random officer, it is Marine Commandant Gen. James Conway.

[freetibet]

OM freaking lord ... these are MARINES for God's sake. The conditions that they deal with out in the field are brutal - beyond brutal; aside from the danger, the lack of privacy, the heat, the cold, the misery ... and yet they are too wussy to share a room with a gay guy? Seriously?

I've shared rooms with lesbians, I've shared gym changing rooms with lesbians, I've seen naked lesbians in such changing rooms and they've seen me - and I've somehow survived with my sexuality intact. In college there were plenty of roommate situations that were gay/straight - no one was threatened by this.

As long as unwanted sexual advances remain verboten it should help, not hurt, to have this be an open issue because all of these tough straight marines would realize that the tough gay marines are not panting after them and somehow emasculating/threatening.

BTW my DH had an ex-army officer as a roommie in business school and I went to-to-toe with him on this issue, 15+ years ago, during the DNDT controversy - and he ended up agreeing with me that if his command had been able to drive tanks through the desert during Desert Storm and kill people they should be able to handle the trauma of an open homosexual among their ranks.

So do you think men and women marines should share living quarters as well? The article you linked to said that they house marines two to a room.

[jvirginia]

So do you think men and women marines should share living quarters as well? The article you linked to said that they house marines two to a room.

Out in the battlefield, they don't live two to a room. I think the "concern" about having gay and straight men sharing rooms for the armed services is a ridiculous non-issue and just plays on this bizarre fear that straight men have of gay men ... gay men are not interested in straight men. It is a non-issue - if these guys can endure battlefield conditions where they ALL live, eat, sleep, and relieve themselves in extremely close quarters and often brutal conditions they can survive the chance of ending up with a gay roommate. I've shared rooms with gay women TONS of times, and no one would confuse me with someone who is brave enough to go out on the battlefield. As far as I can tell, my psyche and sexuality remain intact.

[WasTarin]

Hmmmm....

Link to full article:

http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/03/26/mar...ing/index.html

No, it isn't some random officer, it is Marine Commandant Gen. James Conway.

"(CNN) -- The Marine Corps' top officer says he would want to avoid housing gay and heterosexual Marines in the same rooms on base if the ban on gays openly serving in the military is lifted."

Excellent point! Bunk all the gay men together and all the lesbians together. Make love, not war.

[ahava]

I don't think that for some this is not about being wussy or threatened - for some - maybe. But for some they believe that practicing gay sex=sin. Same as some people believe abortion=murder. While I don't always see eye to eye and always agree, I can understand and respect the position.

Since the ppl in the army are enlisted and by law have to stay enlisted for their period of service, I don't think that the gvt can/(should?) force them to room with gay men. Not because I think that they (those who are gay) are going to have crazy gay sex/orgies or anything that is "suspect" - not at all, that is silly, and I don't think most ppl would think this. But those rooming with them being forced to "accept" this as "ok" goes against their religious beliefs.

I guess thinking about it, I'd have to lean to DADT. - Because I don't think it is right to NOT let gay men/women serve.

[ahava]

Re-read this and HAD to add, that I do not mean to say that gay-murderer or anything of the sort. Yikes ! Just trying to correlate that some ppl believe things are a sin and some don't and these are 2 hot button topics. Sorry if anyone read the above and did not get to this also!

[jvirginia]

So, what if a soldier's room-mate had had an abortion? Since some people think abortion=murder, maybe people who admit having had an abortion should not be allowed in the armed services, so as not to offend/upset people who are pro-life. Or, what about having to room with a Muslim? Some people thing Muslims are evil - so maybe they should be separated out, or forced to pretend that they are Christian (rather like gays having to pretend they are straight). Oh, same with Jews. Jews should bunk together to avoid upsetting Christian soliders' sensibilities.

The thing is, we are often told that it is an honor to be able to fight for our country. There is historical precedence of saying that blacks were not equal citizens because they didn't (couldn't) fight for their country. The same thing with women. If you only have hetero, white, Christian men able to defend the country, there is absolutely a sense among some of them that it is more their country than the rest of ours'.

[twinks]

on base

Out in the battlefield, they don't live two to a room. I think the "concern" about having gay and straight men sharing rooms for the armed services is a ridiculous non-issue and just plays on this bizarre fear that straight men have of gay men ... gay men are not interested in straight men. It is a non-issue - if these guys can endure battlefield conditions where they ALL live, eat, sleep, and relieve themselves in extremely close quarters and often brutal conditions they can survive the chance of ending up with a gay roommate. I've shared rooms with gay women TONS of times, and no one would confuse me with someone who is brave enough to go out on the battlefield. As far as I can tell, my psyche and sexuality remain intact.

The article clearly says "on base" where the rooms are small and completely non-private. I didn't see anything in the article mentioning the battlefield.

"Gay men are not interested in straight men?" That's a pretty broad assumption.

Maybe the gay men should bunk with the lesbian women? Not even a glimmer of a chance of sexual attraction going on there.

[jvirginia]

... you can see how absurd the whole thing gets ... my point is that if these guys can endure the indignities (not to mention the dangers) of the battlefield, they could manage sharing a room with a gay person without being severely traumatized.

[twinks]

well

... you can see how absurd the whole thing gets ... my point is that if these guys can endure the indignities (not to mention the dangers) of the battlefield, they could manage sharing a room with a gay person without being severely traumatized.

I don't think it's as black and white as you wish it to be. Perhaps they are not worried about being severly traumatized because that would be absurd. Perhaps they are worried about being comfortable in their own home. Frankly, I can see both sides.

How comfortable would you be rooming with, say, someone else's husband? You're living in close quarters, sleeping, showering and appearing naked in front of him. Of course, he doesn't want to have sex with you personally, but he does find naked women appealing and does like to have sex with them. While you wouldn't be severly traumatized, I bet you'd be uncomfortable. Why is it not the same?

[jvirginia]

I don't think it's as black and white as you wish it to be. Perhaps they are not worried about being severly traumatized because that would be absurd. Perhaps they are worried about being comfortable in their own home. Frankly, I can see both sides.

How comfortable would you be rooming with, say, someone else's husband? You're living in close quarters, sleeping, showering and appearing naked in front of him. Of course, he doesn't want to have sex with you personally, but he does find naked women appealing and does like to have sex with them. While you wouldn't be severly traumatized, I bet you'd be uncomfortable. Why is it not the same?

I just find it extremely ironic that Marines, famous for toughness, are then seen as delicate that bunking with a gay fellow marine is something they couldn't handle. I am sure that some Marines aren't comfortable bunking with Muslims, or perhaps even minorities. Tough. They can get used to it. As I said, in the field these guys have NO privacy and they survive. In training they all shower together and believe me there have been and always will be gay men in there.

I don't see it as black and white - but I do think that it is absurd to try to "sort" your marines by sexual preference and house them based on that (per your post about housing lesbians with gay men ... it gets absurd very quickly) and I don't see the "comfort" of the straight male Marine as even remotely adequate justification to deny gays and lesbians the right to serve their country. (And it is a right - I can point to a huge history of arguments about women and minorities in the military that show that keeping them out of the military has been used as basis for characterizing them as "less" American.)

Also, I find it fascinating that this is seen as a big issue with men but not with women. I don't understand the intense fear that some straight men have of gay men.

[twinks]

neither do I

I don't see the "comfort" of the straight male Marine as even remotely adequate justification to deny gays and lesbians the right to serve their country. .

I'm not sure anyone is trying to deny gays and lesbians the right to serve their country.